Charlotte ellis

 I'm thank you so much for so many of you joining me today. I probably wondering who I am. I don't know how much context you've had, so I this looks a bit like I really blow my own trumpet. Actually anyway, that's what this whole back is about. Helping you to blow you in trumpets, but I wanted to give you an idea of. The weird kind of pathway that I clear can take. So I I went to Leeds Union, did a marketing and design degree. I was always absolutely crap. After Uni at schools so was fairly discouraged from doing anything vaguely. All stick at uni at my only rogue. Point that I put down on my UCAS form identity still, do you have she's 6 choices of courses and unis and the only rogue one that wasn't really boring business studies was fashion, communication and marketing at Leeds Uni, which is partially in the design school and partially in Business School. And being the rebels at age 18. Country say what everybody wants me. Today I went into that and I absolutely loved it. Gatecrashed all my graphic design house mates lectures and thoroughly enjoyed those as well. An I I guess I'm telling you this because when you're at uni it can be quite black and white in terms of and it's cool in terms of choosing. What degree you gonna do in a level you're going to take it back I said what GCSE is etcetera and it can feel quite regimented. The kind of jobs are available to you and I knew I really wanted to work in a creative agency, but I didn't know there was a role for anybody apart from the creatives in a creative agency. So it came as a real shock to me. Then I moved to London after finishing Uni and realised that if you're really chatty and like sales, which I do, then actually there is a role for you in in agency world. So I took a job at a company called Rainmaker. Still exist they work with some of the most amazing crazy agencies in the world so. Saatchi Fallon, a qka loads of digital agencies and PR agencies just that. Got the whole breath of creative. Basically agencies you won't even realise it was an agency for and I'd be managing in for accounts at anyone time and hoping I was basically that the face of cold business called new business for those. Agencies helping them to win. First conversation. First meeting with the decision makers at the huge brands they wanted to work was and to my absolute shock, I was really good at it. Probably cause I love Brandon. I love to chat and probably my like your traction accent. Abit disarming on a conversation on the first call. I became the number meeting scorer quite quickly, however, left and I moved abroad for a while, teaching English loads of really exciting places, and then we came back. I took a job at Prado **** which might be an agency to some of you familiar with. It was very small when I joined the third second person. So yeah, not super duper small, but. Small compared with where I was going to get to and I was the first person who had come on board to manage marketing. It had lots of failed attempts at having new business people in house. He would really, really sales indent. Appreciate brand and creativity and. To come from more of a ******** sales background and it just wasn't good fit because as you're probably becoming increasingly aware. Particularly, design particularly design agencies, particularly world of branding packaging design, which is very CMYK very in phase. Very very much about details and being in control. It was very hard for these agency to relinquished the control of new business to somebody who's kind of come aboard. Without the experience of the background, so I came on board as this marketing person, but it was really, really bizarre experience because I was reporting into the CEO. He's really. Really, really divisive figure within the industry, like you know, does Marmite and you are really loving where you really hate him is exceptionally bright guy, very driven screen, a lot of agencies group JCR which is another agency probably familiar with from small to very large and multinational. And. I was working directly with him, but he wasn't very good at constructive criticism and there was literally no control laid out for me. The window KP eyes or targets or anything around what I was doing so it's completely left to my own devices. So once I got over left 18 months of anxiety. I was doing it like I got my head into that. I basically learned through trial and error what worked, what didn't learn, how to be really effective at those things that did work, and an intern that worked because without a new business function, just with me, the only person in marketing the company grew over three times the size. During my time there. And then when I left after close five years, I was replaced by three and a half people. So clearly I was doing something effectively. But right now what I moved onto and I've consulted with loads of different kinds of firms, but majority design agencies I asked founded a company called Caffeine where I help. Agencies grow basically realise their ambitions to grow an that's often through quite direct new business strategies and other times through more indirect marketing strategies around profile raising. I'll explain all those really annoying. An industry times median in a short while. With some incredible agencies over 500, the majority of which are quite small under 10 people, but many of which are much bigger. I'm working at the moment with Bulletproof posted go just signed Taxi Studio. You guys probably familiar with as well and then loads of other really incredible breakaways. Attended a quick breakaway. Paul Fisher breakaway to the others that I'm working with at the moment, so really exciting to be able to support these people and their excited frankly to have found somebody who's so passionate about brand design but also about sales helping drive that forward. So that's about me. But why should you care about all this? You probably like Charlotte still playing in turn that well, to be honest, most design agencies are founded by a creative they normally broken away from a bigger agency or prestigious agency, and they tend to be a designer themselves and generally speaking doesn't typify everybody. But creators tend to dislike, it, sells marks inside of things they feel about icky and. And not happy about being that person, but. The after they've taken a big client onto with them and work their way through all the business that they can provide. They are often left wondering where the hell the next paychecks going to confront. Keep the lights on and the employees and business in in a salary so they at that point end taken work that doesn't fit their. Ideals and that ethos in order to survive? Or they decide to pack up and go back to working for another company, which of course is absolutely acceptable, but can feel a bit like failure. If you wanted to make a good girl yourself. So what can you learn from that? Because mostly people come to me when there about 3 months away from no cash. And what you can learn from that is if you were deciding now whether to start your own design firm sooner rather than later. Or maybe you preparing to get five years experience within agencies, but you've really got an ambition to start your own practise and you cause I really encourage you to consider marketing your business activities before. Because then you're going to be so much better equipped than most early stages or agencies that otherwise would be really successful if they just. If their new business efforts would match up to the level of creative they turnout. I'm so on practicality wise and don't worry about taking notes. If you're feeling that this is really relevant to you in this in the short term, because I'm financially. This PDF around with you guys afterwards as there are also some links in here for you guys to follow through. Broadly speaking, and this isn't any particular order, but these are the things that you do need to consider if you are family run agency one is get your online presence looking sharp, so don't try and make the most incredible website in the world. Just make it really simple but make the message really unapologetic. Don't talk about your lack of experience or your early stage. Model yourself as a successful agency from the Start CAS. Trust me, people don't dig too deep and it's all about what you project yourself, semester bulleted thing and also encourage you not to spend forever on social media. I see a lot of agencies spend all the time they dedicate to marketing and new business on Instagram quite frankly. Not a lot of their business, if any comes from Instagram, and so I'd encourage you not to fall down that track. There's loads of directories online you can add yourself to really early on, and that people might consult when they're looking for an agency. And even if they don't use them, it will help to boost your SCO really early on. So when people have a little nosey around coz they've heard about you, they see lots of references to your agency on the Internet. That's really helpful because it really shows them. Have a blog. I've literally just put that in because most people skip it, but it's a really great way, again to to drive your SCO, but it's a bit further down the line and worked well into that too long here. So get press for every project a lot. The trap that even the biggest agencies fall into, especially the exact creative directors. Is carrying too much about what their peers think is so important to focus on where your prospective clients are hanging out? And I'll give you a hint. It's not design week. I don't know any agency who got hired because the marketing director at the brand saw the agencies work in Design Week is only ever because it was in the grocer or it was. Confectionery Production monthly magazine. Really, really unsexy title but you know is likely to be where what lands on their desk. Or the Email newsletter that they get on a weekly basis, so that's really important. And start conversations with new business prospects on a weekly basis. Again, another thing that people avoid. I don't want to say it's just a British trait, but we have. I do find it. Is it in my international clients don't have much of a problem with this, but most people think they're being pushy if they reach out to people, there's ways of doing that without being annoying. And it's so important, because if you're waiting for people to find you, it's gonna take forever. So it's really important to. To be making people aware of you and then when you're doing all the other stuff that's on this lesson on the on the next page, they're gonna. It's gonna feel like his met below that person got in contact with me and knowing notice them on LinkedIn and there in that news Email newsletter or there at that event that I'm planning to go to if it's remotely and it will. It'll feel bigger than it says. You can engineer that basically and the other good thing it was a good aspect of that is you can automate the opening of conversations with new business project prospects quite easily. Which is great news if you plan to be a small agency, have no ambition to employ loads of people. This is a method I use and I'm just me and part time assistant, so it really is really successful and suggest you address it sooner than later and then another huge downfall that of agencies go through it is. Not then once every shouts people is not keeping in touch with them because the reality is only about 55. I think fifteens absolutely is. It is quite a an optimistic number actually, I think probably between 5 and 15% of people you get in contact with will actually be interested in what you're talking about at that point in time. Maybe they've got a live brief with a holding budget for that. All you've got in contact with them really opportune moment because they got this challenge and they know they need to start doing something about it. But the majority of the time it's not going to be the right time to speak to them, and you can't just give up the first time you get in contact, specially not if you're going to them and saying hey, can we work with you if you go to the say hey, This Is Us. Here's something I think you might really like and I'll get back in contact with you in a few months time if you know now is not the right time to further conversation. If you do that and you keep in touch, then you've got a way of. Raising the prospects of generating revenue from that conversation moving forward. Like I say, so many people give up at the first chance, so that's another way you can really stand out. I've used some words there. Hope spot Evergreen sequence. Probably not something to get into right now is a bit bit deeper, but basically is to say you can do this in a really smart way that doesn't require you to be an exclusively or sales person. So many little technological hacks now, without it becoming too complex and downloading too many softwares. Loads ways you can find to to make this work harder for you. Without it you literally doing everything. And then so I mentioned taxi and it's not. You know it's not. Still confidential when I say because it's literally publicly available in the website, but this is something that they're definitely guilty about and we're going to be working on over the course of the next couple of weeks is proving return on investment, so if you don't have results, I would argue that case study or a piece of work shouldn't be only website. There are so many ways to get results even when your clients won't cooperate or just demonstrate the size of the project. At the very lea And often results are available as soon as possible. So give you an example. One of my clients. Just worked in a project with a what was an independent food brand who had an opportunity to go into Sainsbury's. So the very first major multiple supermarket chain is huge deal for this company is going to be a game changer. This agency got drafted into something really boring, translate somebody else's design onto a new pack, which was what? Sainsbury's it ask them to do is a basic requirement of getting this listing and the ages he was like yeah we'll take it because you know we want to win the future. We'd like to redesign his brand at some point. It was the opening of relationships that do in due course the Brown got listening. Sainsbury's and now there are the very beginning of a conversation about redesigning the entire ground, which is what their original intention was. So I said to them, you know you need to put this project on your website. Your like. No, it's not indicative of what we enjoy doing. It's like yeah I know. But think of the prospects who come to you, what stage the business there are prices you charge fit really nicely with the kind of brands who. I'm looking to move from independent retailers. They've already got some proof of concept. They've got a small target audience that already really likes the product, and now they need to scale it up and your expertise about how they get listing in Sainsbury's for example is exactly what they want to know. You're capable of doing in order to hire you, so I could super important that. Suggest that kisses on your site and Secondly the results they were like, but we have results that you already have. A result is listed in Sainsbury's. You've made an independent brands were major multiple so all that is to say results are often onion knows. Just think about it from a perspective clients perspective. That was a mouthful. Think about what they. Want to achieve and have demonstrated that for the clients and then another thing that British people, generally speaking aren't very good at, and I'm definitely one of these. Two is asking for referrals from your existing clients to the people in their network and there's some really simple ways of doing this where you don't feel spamming annoying. It's 68% easier to win business from a warm referral, so. A client has been referred to you, then it is from a cold contact, so that's another huge reason to ask people to introduce you to two other people in their network. Enjoyed working with you. I want you need to update the watch. Is a few things to think about and I should probably say at this point as well. You're probably looking at something. Hey, this is like five years or more away from me. If you know not immediately thinking about setting up on your own out out of uni, but I'm telling you all this because you in all likelihood your go work at another agency to have a not great marketing function. New business function or it's not existent and these few bullet points from these two slides is is the stuff any agency needs. Literally any agency. In fact, almost any beta be business. I'd say so business to business type business model. And so not anybody knowing this, you best table to kind of give them a nudge in the right direction. So in turn you can win the projects that you want to work on. But it's also helpful if you ever get to work on any house jobs. By that I mean jobs for the agency to help raise their profile because you've got more of an understanding about why it's important. I really recommend you to do that if you have the opportunity, because it's such a great experience learning on somebody else's diamond time before you set up your own business about what works and what doesn't. So three other aspects to think about. Becoming a thought leader so. This is really horrible term, but basically means writing articles or how TOS or. Any other kind of opinion about how to solve a challenge that most clients have? And this really works best when it comes from the perspective of a client's challenge rather than just a really abstract or that you've had about. I don't know the new Dairy Milk logo. I've got strong opinions about that, but I don't think it warrants. 800 words copy for everybody to read. It would more be a case of how do you model eyes A. Historical brand without alienating existing audience. Here are five ways to do that. That might be how you translate it and use Cadburys an example. And again, a lot of agencies really focused on the design. Industry press when they do that, and I think that's real mistakes that you focus on trade publications, so you know thinking bout to the really unsexy confectionery, production monthly or whatever it's called. Getting things published in there instead. Speaking is another huge thing, so talking at trade shows or podcasts or online events you know particularly relevant now, and hopefully it stays that way, at least for many of the events, because its barriers to entry are lower than ever before because the lack of expenses around travel obviously and accommodation and. Time out of the office, you know. Kissing. Join on a zoom meeting to an event in New York is completely different. Having to take three days minimum out of the studio of working time. So that's something I really encouraged agencies to look at right now. And it's another great opportunity to recycle the stuff you come up with. A thought leadership category. You know, if you've written about the cabaret topic, for example, how could you then translate that into a talk? As an event centre, rewriting from scratch each time. And one of the main tracks I see agencies fall into. Is just enter as soon as they decide they want to do marketing and they've got some budgets there. They just enter any which Ward that's knocking around. And it's such a waste of time, and money is really important to listen to what your clients need and want, and generally that for them is proof of return on investment when it comes to design. So proof that the design is effective commercially. It solves the commercial challenge because no matter how many creative directors like to think brands have come to them, client has come to them because they just want to look prettier and more aesthetically pleasing. The reality is at the root of that was always a commercial objectives, so it's really important that your results are always tallied up against that. An on that note, I really recommend. Any words that really focus on that so the design Business Association may not be familiar with it already, but that's trade body trade organisation for for design. Does somethings better than other things. But one thing it does really well is the design affections towards actually they've become like a hygiene factor. For some the really big companies like. Unilever craft as is away for their marketing procurement teams, which the people who sign off you can go on their design roster. Which agencies they can work within effect. It's become like an absolute basic, a mandatory for an agency to join that roster is having a certain number of scientific. This was because it's the only way they can prove that agency is commercially effective. The work that they do, and I'd really encourage it not to be distracted by peer awards. By which I mean. Sadly, DNA D yellow pencils, probably controversial, saying that here, but that's great if your budgets big and people already know and love you have no issues with new business, but I wouldn't start that because I don't see many clients saying a yellow pencil is a prerequisite. Working with an agency then more likely to be interested in objective metrics. And that word judge so yeah. Science fiction sports it is. And if you need motivation around this coz it really feels like a lot of stuff to do. I really just. Push BA home a few things. So number one you'll see results so soon as you start doing this stuff regularly and the reason that I love working with smaller scaling ambitious companies is seeing the impact the results of any business drive and marketing drive on their company. I mean. Is it really is fun? Like profit margin increases are fun because you take home more money. Team satisfaction is fun because you know it's crap. Working with people who aren't happy growing your team. If that's something you want to do, can you really please some agency founders? Not every agency, and increasingly people are deliberately keeping smaller. But not necessarily limiting the revenues. Growing and working with the kind of businesses you'd like to be working with means more exciting projects and not only that, it's a self filling prophecy so it becomes easier to win new business in the future if you're. If you've had a trend of winning new business to this point and you know something that might feel more immediately relevant to you, is your shift. Agency immediately. One of the reasons one of the questions that's come up a lot when I've been doing these guest lectures is. Do you think I should be using this approach right from the get go when I'm building My Portfolio size to be able to send out agencies and to innovate freelance work? And I'd say unless you think it's really going to be detrimental to your chances of winning a job if you, if that's your ambition. Then there's no reason not to, so you know, presenting yourself as a proud, confident design, outfits and speaking in the third person, or using a name that isn't just your first and last name is the fastest and easiest way to go from kind of employee or freelancer for hire. Mindset to a successful business immediately. Think of it this way, if you present yourself as a name, so say my case caffeine. People under some people understand that as being just maybe some people understand it as being a bigger outfit, but it was called Charlotte Ellis Limited. Then it be a lot harder for people to consider me as an organisation just because the the way I'm presenting myself. So encourage you to think about it sooner rather than later. Another reminder that if you consider this kind of stuff before you really need it so. In some cases, that's if you're thinking you know, five years time beyond you want to shift from being employee to running a business Ranger design outfit. Along the way. Taking on other projects on the side, and you probably realised this already, as the designers you know you probably when you say to somebody that party was last time anyone went to positive or you know somebody said, what do you do when you say I'm designer, they're like, oh, I've got this business idea. I need a logo and all of a sudden you like K what? You got £20, you know. But actually the bishops go up, but everybody considers you as freelancers sooner. Tell them that ur a designer. So I encourage you to be taking on freelance work. Obviously I'm not a lawyer so I can't advise you against the kind of employment contract that you've got, but put everybody I know does who works for an agency. You take on creative work alongside your existing job and then you've got a profile of projects to be able to show on that website. When you when you start when you start off when you head out on your own when you quit your job and you're doing your own thing much easier to do it from that perspective then. Have a blank page where it says worked up on the website. So three things to do for you ready, and this is the bit where I'm here again, but hopefully it's pretty helpful to you. I've done, I've created a free Five module course to agency marketing to covers off lot of the stuff that we've talked about here in more detail and off some really practical guidance on how to do these things. Press was keeping in touch speaking and more, and then each week after that you get an email from me with. It's working for my clients and it's always very much focused on the challenge that clients face and what the solution is to it, so hopefully that will be useful to you. I also have a podcast because you know who doesn't these days apparently, but that's really it came about because I was having conversations with people. Agency owners, suppliers. Two agencies, lots of clients that hire agencies about what? Why? What's working for them? Why they hire people trends that they're seeing and I just started recording them because I realised it was actually really, really valuable to other people. So that's been created to inspire you to kind of keep start your agency grows and just make sales and marketing within an agency feel. More manageable and less grubby, it's really designed to bridge the gap, I think between. Agency and client as well. Because sometimes the clients partners such a pedestal, they can feel almost God like and it's very difficult to be able to relate to them. This is it really great opportunity to listen, end to them sharing their vulnerabilities as Welland things that they find challenging and them admitting mistakes when they were working with agencies. And I think it can Helen turn help you to work better with clients moving forward. And the other thing to do is connect with me on LinkedIn if you want to keep in touch in the future. And you think this is going to be valuable to something that you've got planned in the long term or short term and. And then you've always got a way of getting in contact with me. So just wanted to leave you with two things I really loved. I think you might too. One is about called Company of 1. A guy called Paul Jarvis right is proof that small and powerful. Its guidance on how you can wield that power as a creative person. Don't ignore it if you plan to be a company with more than one, because I think it holds true regardless all about the concept of not being limited by. Number, size, location, any of the factors that you think might be negative. It really dispels those, and I think there's value in it for almost any size agency. To be honest with you, and there's a podcast you may have come across. Already you're perhaps not. They think you're pretty book is all now called clients from Hell, which does exactly what it says on the tin. Anne and I just find it really endearing for the laughs, but also for the reminder that everybody's got clients from hell and they exist everywhere. And I think I just want to leave you with this sentiment as well that. I think. I'm not saying that I I wasn't at uni in the Dark Ages, it was only 2007 when I left, but I think what has changed between then and now and something that I'm really excited about behalf of you guys is such a wealth of. Resources and information out there and and people are more likely than ever before to be sharing the challenges they faced in solutions they found to it. So if you ever feel like really stuck. Have a look around for somebody else sharing information about this. I find podcasts and audio books the best on this front, but equally just going to people and asking them for advice and mentorship. I know so many more organised. Platforms within design and one was launched a couple of weeks ago, Unbold, and if you remember the name of your top it had probably had, but I will. I will send you across a message after Mr Show at the student because organisation been formed by multiple people so. Ahead of what was previously on word is D merged and become born. Ugly and PR agency that I really respect. The Dbas got involved. I'm going to be advising them on some stuff as well as all around supporting graduates with either finding places at design agencies they want to work at or enabling them start on their own sooner than they might have done. If this pandemic happens happened so I think you know there are so many resources, but that's one very, very practical one that's launched really recently. Literally in the last month and is is created for you guys right now. It's very moment. Um? And then I just wanted to say one final thing and that's. Just don't worry about it starting Amices wish advised lots enough but starting an agency is one of the easiest ways to become a Co owner. I mean, it's literally you, a Mac and electricity supply. There are no other industries I can think of that have a lower barriers to entry actually maybe. Maybe prostitution, but I don't wanna get into that right now, so you could just keep at the new business activities even when you're making a lot of money because it's it's really important that you don't have any dry patches and ensure that your revenue growth matches your ambitions. For me and I absolutely loved what you've got to say, because country too. What we talked about just before all of that I could actually see your face is because I was sharing my screen, so I'm not. 

Questions 

And tips do you have to make your CV stand up to design agencies if you wanted to get experience before starting your own studio? So this is a weird one, because I never actually hired designers. I've always been on the. Business side of the agency, but I think what I'd really recommend you do is follow the process that they layout in their sights rather than hassle them beyond that because there's a. There's a reason it's there and they're likely to ignore it otherwise, but equally follow as many. Agencies as possible on Instagram. Maybe even set to separate profile and follow loads of agencies like big and small and see what they've got around and see what they're posting. Because around this time a lot of them seeing a lot of them posting about design internships. And I can see very few people liking or even following their page visits. Not the presence they pushed in the past. I'm not sure how much uptake there necessarily getting, and you know, I think it's the law now. I don't know, but you know, they have to give you. Fairly decent compensation I think, compared to what I got at the time, so I don't know many people not paying those rules. And you know the the beauty of. With your guys position this year, you know it's also been the partners been really hard for you as well I'm sure, but for me experience meant being forced to relocate to London. Without a minimum wage or London living wage or whatever, and it was incredibly expensive, so I'd say take make the most out of being able to be remote. I know it's not the most exciting socially or taking advantage of the kind of culture being in a studio, but I think it opens a lot more opportunities in terms of he can work with and to that end. I lost my clients and the people I speak to hiring much further afield abroad, and you've got this huge opportunity to capitalise on. The UK design industries reputation as exceptional particular within graphic design. Branding, packaging design which is you know, as you probably realised my speciality so don't miss after the UK. Look further afield, especially if you know you're happy to work weird hours. I know Singapore that. The agencies in Singapore absolutely dying for better, better designers and you get pom projects much more exciting and more senior level than you ever would. You get more autonomy, basically so, so you look further afield. Isabelle said, well, this presentation be available. I don't know what you studios I've shared out, or if I haven't already done, but I'll share the deck with you. Yeah, and then we'll move. The fashion, but all the links will work, so yeah, we'll do that Isabel so broadly says, what's your watch? My professional sort them self initiated briefs responding to an issue or interest. Look, I know lots of people further in the career who still did us when they want to make transition across three different areas. So in my my best friend, incredibly talented designer. Very very ecoconscious really wants to move out to brand packaging because that's an area she feels like she fell into. Because of financial needs rather than something she practically wanted to work in, she's very good at it. But she wants to work in information communication design so she's self initiating projects and showing those via her website an and with directly with people she wants to work with. You notice to demonstrate what she what she can do. And also so she doesn't have to take a peek up. So I think you know if you know you're really good and you never a self initiated brief that will really demonstrate your knowledge or understanding or ideas in a particular area, then if you know it's going to make you stand out then do it and make. But then don't just sit there on it and expect people to kind of. Wait for it to rise. You need to be really practise about sharing that with the right people. So I would start with who you going to send it to and then build the brief around that slightly. So that it serves a purpose. Does that help? So the best answer because how do you say no water jokes and that whole degree programme would have crumbled there? Charlotte. My own. He's back because this is something that we've been doing. I live in this module in this idea about. You doing breeze about what you're interested in, particularly social concerns or agendas that you have already trying to push that. Cause I people really lapped up. I think in portfolios doesn't people buy all this is what you're about. This is what you're interested in. Think it's yeah, so important. You're moving in a different direction from where you are. Thinking bout to raise this question? I you know when you when you're talking number, I'm just thinking as a designer. I guess he responds to self initiated briefs or any other reason that matter that you're able to share as part of your pub clear is really another aspect of you showing your personality. These without you know vocally saying that as part of the interview process and I think it all needs to tell it together. So if you know something that will really reinforce an area that you're passionate about and you wanna be focusing on but just be aware that there will be agencies and companies out there who just want. People workhorses who come in and do executional stuff, so don't expect everyone to appreciate it, that's not. I don't not be reflective of your talents. Some people are just **** like that, so you know, keep moving on. Don't take it personally. I think a lesson. If you already haven't had, like an entire module on that, then that's something you learn pretty quickly. And industry particularly create. If I'm really kills and you guys because. I see even you know 56 year old exec creative directors have. Like go when we posted a piece of work on like 10 maybe like refreshing every few seconds to see what their peers were saying about them. They were so scared about you know what people thought. People really subjective opinions about your work and I think that's something that I wish I could have said more to the designers. Within the agencies that I've worked with in the past. And definitely something else to my clients is. You just like AWS line is so subjective and just bear that in mind when people are giving you feedback either before you get a job. When you get a job or in a client meeting at any point. It's not personal, it's about work. So try not to take it personally, which I know is a lot easier said than done. And Erase said did you feel like you degrades with Bill and handle from marketing perspective? Where is portfolio more imposing so I didn't have to produce a portfolio as part of my work, but I feel like this. I do have an answer to this question because I mentioned I did a year in industry so I did a gap year before uni. Tears of uni that I did a year of industry and then it went back into my third year at Uni and my my My industry here made me realise I remember you're not gonna like me now because it's interesting what you're going to say because I think it be surprised what I think. Which I will answer. So my and I think you know they do do that cause that lead to uni anymore. So probably a reason for that but. Yeah, I. I it made me realise how. How pompous some of the lecturers were in their knowledge of their ability and how long it was since they'd spent an industry. And actually, once I was in industry, I realised how inlet unrelatable the experience was too where the. Yeah, well, the rest of the industry was basically and I'm seeing that resolved now when I'm working with Unis, I'm seeing you know the lectures themselves. Working on projects from the side now keeping the hand and I think that really changes the perspective of what you're learning and so in answer to the actual question. When I came back from that year in industry I. I guess my eyes were open and I cared less, but I already was. I've worked so bloody hard in that last year. I graduated first in my year and that I definitely wasn't in that position when I left after Year 2. So I think it gave me more rooms. But I don't think I was doing it for the grades. I think I was doing it because I knew. So what what happened was that year in industry they offered me a job at the end of it and I had a really hard decision to make whether to take the job and not finish my degree and not graduate. Well, let's go back to Uni and risk not being able to get a job. When I got outta union. So when I when I did. Make the decision to go back to Uni. I was like I'm going to hell for leather because I've just rejected a job in favour of this, you know? Graduates in 2007 moving into 2008 word financial crash and so. Probably now you know that that wasn't a decision that I took lightly. Yeah, does that answer the question Rosie? I think I think I said you could ask me and this is just and I agree with you and comes my spirits which is on a practical degree course and I realise how it wasn't. I was taught by hate this phrase academics who was a different type of course, but it's quite theoretical. Who word, an industry I think. This is being really important when stuff in this course that we have people who are research active and have a design practises that changes everything so much cousin streams so quickly, but I think the. It tells a poor valuing grades. I think if you're engaging with the course, your portfolio will be good and so we're grades very rarely do end up with a portfolio that you look at that makes you weep because it's so good and they scrape the 3rd. It's interesting kits since what's? Yeah, symbiotic, the two word together, and I think also students who try and get good grades and then please don't at me. Students who sent emails like this, who you know who will send emails. I wanna get first. How do I get at first? It's so challenging because it's like. Trying to tick numbers to get a first and that's a detriment to getting a good portfolio. I think it's so theoretically I completely agree. It's it's interesting I do think and I don't even. Tell me what you think, smile Charlotte, but when you graduate, you're like if I get a fast, I'm gonna pentagram are just gonna. I don't know because I wasn't BT Internet in the same way Pentagram. Alright, my mom will be like you daughter. I think I think need to make her. Create director and I think that was what it was about, but it's funny, isn't it? I think it matters to you and I guess would be going up further study and make HD then you do need a level of funding particularly. I think it matters. Maybe I can till graduation. I think after that is it's a different. Metric in which you're measuring yourself move is asking if I have a degree. Over decade, nobody's asked. Do you know why? I mean, I have a young daughter now, and the one thing that I'd supplement in terms of education is some extra careers knowledge. And so you know, because I'm under no illusions, I don't think she's going to be listening to me when she's making these decisions at age 16. We probably won't have that kind of relationship at that point because I I didn't with my mum and dad, but somebody who can just shed light on the fact that number one grades aren't the bill and end all. And people are always looking for passion and practical experience, so I would. I think you know I kind of already said it and I'm very think you're in agreement that your passion and your. Just get up and go in terms of doing it will rarely not shine through and I think it you know it can even supplement or replace like a grade that you're not as happy with. I think that if you're going for the grad programme at KPMG, find the probably want the red brick unis. They want a minimum 21, but this is the beauty of this industry. It's not about that. So yeah, plates weren? T just get us, I just so you just get as much experience as possible. Not just because it will help you have more options in terms of. Employee opportunities, but also when you become an. I think I probably mentioned something for Easter, but when you become. You know self employed or running your own agency. If that's the course you choose to take, that experience is never going to be negative. It's always going to be something that place your advantage. Absolutely. He will say thank and obviously this is. This is the leading question that we had, so we had Steve and Sarah from something more. Pure agency in Leeds and they also beat him in the first years and they're really. Last week in there really hammering home site, different talk for Level 4 as it was fuelled year Level 6 but just about being nice and being personable because I've just been recruiting people and because they're working remotely obviously slightly different setup Now they've they've all that as a team that's really important to them. Who they work with and what they're interested in their values cause they were small team, but more than ever because of people working remotely, just having working with people that are pleasant. Is become a real criterion for them? Are you finding and pleasant and nice or not the. Probably the best words to articulate their you finding that companies are willing to work with people that. Ah. Nice nice nice. That's how you come across and and your care. I guess you mentioned about Karen interesting work earlier. Yeah, I think. I think it's interesting because for awhile Linden became a lot friendlier during the pandemic because everybody felt like there in something together. And I and I felt like that showed through work as well. It's interesting to hear that I feel like it's coming a bit cold again now from, but it's interesting to hear that they are actively, you know, they've made that part of the criteria, I think. I mean, I kind of choose my clients as much as they choose me and I choose to work with nice people because it makes life. Nice, and there's no reason not to be pleasant. Well, yeah, I think you know. Going back to the you know all it takes is a Mac and electricity supply. There's something about an agency is very different from a freelancer. It's this sense of it's not about how big you are. I think your your productivity and your creativity and know the way people. Receive your work isn't just about the number of people you are, it's about more than some of your parts to use in all the expression. I think it's to do with the way people collaborate together, the way that riff off of each other, the way that open to criticism and don't take it personally and further things on the way they are happy to have worked on concepts and then passed it over to somebody else for development rather than getting really. possessive it the whole way through these are all things that in that doesn't mean you can't stand up for what you believe in. Yeah, there's nice ways of doing that, so any opportunity to build those communication skills is always going to be a good thing. Maybe that's why I'm looking more. Maybe that's a good technologies communication skills. Isn't it clear? Asia? I think maybe more than being nicer because that is so important, isn't it? So yeah, yeah, building trust and. The the ability, the ability failed to articulate how you feel or articulation is really difficult and you you guys are in the job of that right? Your visually articularly saying. Ambition sentiments. You know that that's what your business is, but. Yeah, doing that verbally is a challenge, so yeah, and any opportunities to improve that I think can only stand doing instead when it comes to work. any other questions while we thought