Charlotte Ellis Maldari

Thank you, thank you so so you guys know. I think numbers may be shared already that I'm actually coming to speak to you. I think after Easter, right? And that's right? Yeah, I'm not gonna go into the detail of the deck that I prepared for that, because otherwise you're just going to be listening to. Give me a better background about me. Things I can talk to you and maybe then we can freestyle with some questions and just yet. Don't hesitate to ask whatever is on your mind. So my background is I actually went to Leeds Uni. And I did fashion communication marketing. And but I really was a frustrated graphic designer lapsing craft, so I wasn't allowed to do graphic design. Gate crashed all my house mates graphic design classes cause I was obsessed with Brown and the power of brands so when I left uni it was a natural move for me too. To gravitate towards that world and my first job was with a company called Rainmaker, which lots of people I didn't even know existed. I just left Uni, graduated, got the I think it was the Guardian on a Tuesday. That time was the media Guardian Jobs list, which is probably all completely different now. Talk about 2007. And then I saw this job and it said 20. I think it was 22 grand starting salary and there was a song at that. I can't remember who sung. It was like 22 grand job in the city. It's alright, I don't know if you guys. I think this summer anyway. You should, I can find it on Spotify now. Thanks for that. So I was like yes, this is what I do at night. Therefore this is what I want to do during the day and it just seemed like such an unattainable amount of money at that point. That I was completely bowled over that somebody would want to pay me for my time after being paid to be at uni. So I yeah, so I went to work for Rainmaker, which. Is a bizarre kind of set it really it generates new business leads for marketing agencies. Really, big marketing agencies really broad spectrum, so some of the biggest ad agencies, media agencies, digital agencies at the time. Mobile marketing was a thing, so that was another kind. Graphic design PR. Anne. Really, really huge agencies that you didn't realise that outsource this kind of thing and I just really love it. Add and kind of excelled in that environment was winning loads of meetings for for these clients and it felt like the perfect Fusion because I really wanted to work in a creative space but I knew I couldn't be on the creative team and I kind of. Didn't realise there any jobs beyond just being in the creative studio, so that was really pleasing Anne and then I left abroad for awhile and then I came back and worked at Brandopus which some of you might be familiar with. And that's really is where the crux of my experience lies. It's a big brand. And packaging design agency predominantly working with FMCG, Brown said the stuffy finding the supermarket everything from McCain chips 3 Belvedere vodka. So really low brow. Really high bro. And yeah, and it was a really small agency when I start said I was the first marketing person there think was a 30 second employee and was therefore an A half years and it grew to over 100 people and in three different countries. By the point I left. So my job there, which again I didn't realise existed as a role until I took the job. Was raising the profile of the agency in order to attract more clients. Centre the right kind of clients because we knew we needed to be. Needed walkover attain clients, which is another time I didn't know about it all, which means don't just come in for one project, they decide that your dad brand design Guardian, Guardian and pay you on a monthly basis until I don't finish them. Today works then, and that meant that the business could grow sustainably. We need to be working with my global clients. We knew we really wanted to reach down on FMCG so that really narrows the focus in terms of what I was doing and everything I covered spanned. Answering the telephone to new business calls. Turning anyone away didn't have the right amount of budget. Writing long sought peace articles on behalf of the CEO and the Executive Director, Client services director, ET cetera. Securing coverage for any launches which recently had hosting events for our clients. And pitching to speak events. Abroad in the UK all kinds of places you may be familiar with can Lions that you've come across at this point. Huge advertising festival that happens in the lovely location of Cannes in the South of France. Nice, so I got us on the headline stage there quite a few times. What else did cover the website? Redesigning the website again and again with accidental partner really, anything that touched on the public profile of the company. It also works on quite a few HR initiatives too. Get the very cream of the crop of talent like you guys into the agency. At nearly stages interns in there who paid interns and then some went on to have pen positions within the company. So so that's kind of my background and the reason I left brand Opus was I wanted to work with more diverse client base. Don't just want to be working on one brand in the whole time. An and that means I do still work with some really big agencies. I'm bulletproof, might be another agency that you familiar with responsible for a lot of stuff across. Capri Ritz crackers. I mean, I'm not doing them any justice or absolutely join almost as an agency. Very commercial work, very profitable. And there's some elements of marketing that they just don't handle in house. So I work with them that sorry. The window keeps let you know promoted. It feels criminal to block the sunshine out after such a long winter. And I work with them extending quite few projects and a couple of other really big agencies. But the most the majority of my time is spent. Coaching 11 agency founders. All that marketing people they've appointed within much smaller agency so tend to be between 2 and 20 people. And then the other aspect of what I do is creating resources that people can just buy off the peg and execute themselves if they have a lower budget. But really, all centres around. I'm doing it on a budget that. Doesn't require you necessarily time full time, Charlotte, which is, you know, really only that. The ability of agencies beyond certain people most of the time because it's an expensive overhead that isn't titled the client. So a lot of the agencies I work with and this is the reason I first got in contact with Amber, was. Is really what I'm seeing is the trend of those. Agencies starting much younger age or breaking away from other agencies at a much earlier stage than they would have done previously? I mean, let's nobody's about it. Every agency tends to be a breakaway from another agency, and it always feels a bit grubby when you first do it. But like literally, every agency is founded from some of the people from. Previous agency and they tend to take one or two clients with them, which is always a bit controversial as I can feel a bit grubby. But it's just the nature of it. But then when that work starts to run out a realizar **** we gotta do new businesses. We have to be sales people as well as creative people. And that's a real struggle for a lot of people. And then it really comes down to decision of whether you're going to fight or fold and go back to employment. And there's nothing wrong with employment. I think it's really crucial, but I especially if you want to come in early and you need you need that experience on somebody else's diamond time. Beginning of your career thing. That's really crucial. But you know, if you set out on a path to come an entrepreneur in agency owner, that can feel a bit like failure at that stage. So that's really where I tend to intervene in the dramatic situations and the people who understand it's important I'll be working with them a lot sooner to guide them through how to grow without spending a fortune. Yeah, so so that's why do it's like this hidden world within the world of graphic design that people don't realise exists? Clients don't just turn up on the doorstep, they don't just ring. You have to do some work to go get them and and that's kind of what I want. Highlight and you know some other things that you can do. To get them if you're planning to to create your own agency as soon as you graduate or in a few years following graduation. If that's your ambition. Sorry, but I don't want to go into two more steps because otherwise I'm just going to be repeating what I'm going to be saying that. I mean, that's really helpful as I think I mean I've mentioned this at the moment within the modular looking at developing human identity voice, and I think as well, what you talking about? We obviously an agency or working by yourself and freelance about going out and getting clients, but presenting yourself so that people want to work with you as well. Because it's not just about necessary, a portfolio is. It is about what they like you, your values, what you're talking about. We have a task coming up after this where is about kind of defining yourself more. So again without really talking too much about bullet or. The time the few designers I know who work in the kind of interning to bases with them, bigger agencies, you can probably speak more to what they're looking for from a portfolio. I don't even know what the way of doing it is these days. It's been awhile since I was involved in that, but but certainly I think a couple of things that are really important. Is that if you've got an ambition to do any freelance work or to become an agency in the future, I really, really add you know. Let's face it, the majority of people, at the very least want to do freelance work as well as their main job printed. Every designer I know who's employed does that. Wriggle is within the contract or not. So I think it's really important that you position yourselves as the entity from the very start, and don't be afraid to do that. Equally if you want to become an agency, I think that's really crucial as well, so don't refer to yourself as an individual. I mean, this is a bit different if you're submitting your portfolio for further studies. This is really, I think this is really useful. I think in the same yeah. Well yeah. So you know what fully established agencies with 1520 years of experience in employment before find this difficult as well. You need to. So much like I've got toddlers, almost like buying clothes and shoes a bit too big so they grow into them. Are you not sending a fortune in the future? You kinda need to position himself where you want to be 5 in five years time. When you build that website, when you use those words to describe yourself and then see if you know what you are, never just use your name. Always have a brand name for what you do is in operation from the start and and you need to talk about yourself. In future words, it may feel uncomfortable, especially when you don't feel like you've got any experience to show on there, but I think that's really crucial, otherwise people will send the. Lack of confidence, lack of experience so much, especially now when we're not physically in front of each other. So much is. Is derived from non verbal cues and you know the website for your agency or yourself is just the hugest thing to get right and anything else you're doing online and by getting it right. I don't mean overcomplicated coz another big saying that we see is just a holding page and fancy website coming soon for like. Sometimes years, Anne and then and then an over engineered website that dates really quickly because the technology it uses or the terminology that they really laboured over that all of us suddenly realise doesn't mean anything. 20 clients because it's not literal enough, so I'd say be simple. Don't be afraid to nice towns to say your for a specific kind of. Personal client, you'll see the most success if you do again another thing that. Big agencies really struggled with is that determine not to say that players are only work with one specific area because. They're worried that if they're not everything to everyone, they gonna be repelling certain kinds of clients that they might like to work, and I don't think that's true. What I see is if you say that you worker is sick space, so I'm thinking like stranger and stranger identifies and design Studio, you've come across that they are incredibly beautiful graphic design, packaging, design. For. Exclusively premium spirits brands, and that's that's pretty much all they do. And if they do with this stuff and I'm sure they do that, it put it on the website because that's who they want to appeal to. And you know, if you are in a premium spirits brand, you know they're always on the pitch list. There always on the list of shortlisted agencies that you're going to be going to. So yeah, don't be afraid to finish down, but equally. That might feel like way too early in your career. To do that. You may already know exactly who you want to work with, but I would strongly recommend getting some experience. 1st. And like I said, doing that on somebody else's dyment. I'm doing it within another agency, so you can really home in on what it is important to you. That's useful, though, because we talk about audience right now, and I think instead of exactly what you're saying, instead of it being something that constricts you actually can give you a focus. And I think that's really important for graduates as well so that it's not everything as soon as it becomes something. This tangible immediately, I think, is less stressful and it's never mess are easy, but easier than it would have been if it's just like a Scottish Government back. Particularly because like graphic designers coming this like multifarious thing. Now every week there's a new skills and you kind of where you're practising changes, so it's not. One is not just typography now it says so many different things, so it's. Yeah, it's good to be able to focus little bit rather than trying to spread too much exactly. And the other thing about focusing is it makes it much simpler not just for inbound traffic, by which I mean people who just stumble across you to realise that with the right to them. It also makes it much easier to do the outbound stuff, by which I mean getting contact with people if you know, for example you. Want to do random hacking? Design for premium spirits parents? It's that easy to shortlist like 20 grammes. You'd like to be working with. And you know, early on your career, those might be brands that are small and geographic in quite local areas. So I'm just thinking I'm from West Yorkshire actually and there is some incredible spirits brands coming up from like Wetherby area in North Yorkshire and stuff and gin brands have been around awhile now. Like Slingsby Gin is one that comes to mind but if you know you're going to the earlier stage brands in your saying you do a specific thing. It's going to be much easier for them to buy into. You obviously might be a bit too early to go to Diageo and claim that particular thing, but. It makes easier for scratch people under sooner if you have any ambition to run your any agency, or you know to be doing this for yourself to be self employed in the long term. The sooner you get comfortable with going out and having a chat with people. And by that I mean maybe sending the link to the message or an email like I mean literally typing from the doorstep days anyhow, you soon you get comfortable with that. Everything is going to be so much easier cause of one thing that I see almost all agency founded struggle with is feeling really grubby in the sales role. Yeah, yeah, I don't think he needs to be like that. I think, yeah, you took strike earlier, but something that always feels really super awkward. And I know that myself but anyone speak, so that's like the really awkward thing its struggle to deal with. Interest Lee. I was watching a an Instagram live thing with James Victor, the. US direct this week and I just dropped him as he's talking about a point about. He's got two toddlers, two sons and like constantly throughout the day they like Daddy, Daddy. Look at me, look at me. Watch this. What should we do this then? The other one bit now look at me. Watch me do this. And then he was pointing out that we lose that as we get get older and we need to still be able to do that as they look at me. I can do this. I do this fantastic stuff. Look at me, watch me do this then. And showing people that that skill that you've got that no one else has got your doing things differently, or you do something super fun. So yeah, we do lose that. Don't wait. And we need to kind of keep a bit completely. I think I joke, and it's not really joke. I spent most of my 20s. Records like coming to realisation that I cared too much about what other people thought about what I was doing and he was nice spending boost my. Reverse it, go the other direction. So guys if you can manage it, crack that nut much sooner because it will help you in careering line. Definitely in career if you can careless about whether people think about you, I think you know on that note and a really, really big mistake. I see bigger agencies. Making particularly those breakaway agencies who might be quite young cells. That one company I work with who broke away from Paul Fisher and Tyler Duckworth. Full agencies about five years ago now. And they poached fish is big client Heineken so you can imagine the founding agency with Heineken as your clients. Pretty amazing. Who got an incredible relationship with him. Still working with. But when you know the biggest issue working with them when one has been their confidence and it comes from having broken away from another agency and they they still care too much about what other people think about them. And that manifests in a work environment by them being obsessed with getting coverage and design week or creative review, which quite frankly is a waste of time because none of the clients are looking there is like eyes. The start flight. They had this beautiful pet care brand really premium pack over. Only worked on it like you need to get it wet pets that we clear know it's not **** but that is where hanging out an who cares like the more you worry about whether design weaker featuring you. Or what your client and what your peers are saying and when you put piece of work out there. You avoiding the focus on what future clients actually care about. The reality is that a payment alsso. The cabin less about what other people think when it comes to your career should really be about what what's of interest to the client. Where's the client hanging out? What do they think? What do they need to know? And you know, building a relationship with them. Feels like you're adding value before they even start paying you, so you know I do agree with the thing about being more toddler. I think a super important, but I also think it's important as well to listen to what their challenges are and respond with intelligent solutions before they even stop paying you. So one example is. You know instead of telling them what you think the issues are in their space, doing research into, say, those. Tax issues coming up again and again. Pets that weekly and then responding to them with a really articular article that covers off how design can solve that. For example, that this really specific and it might feel too far into the future for you, but I just be bear it in mind because the more you do that, the more you cater to the problems that actually having. I'm sure that you can off solutions the more they're gonna remember you when the time comes to higher simply because you will feel like the right fit to them, a true partnership. This is this is really good advice as well because I would say all of you notice in level 6, so they write their own brief things about kind of looking the audience, looking the focus and and exactly what you're saying. And it's good when somebody real says it coz I'm aware. But just kind of like finding new problems, so you kind of, and I think the pet we. It's a big pet focus graphic design programme, so it's good. Yeah, I digress. But like finding that particular again, it would be different. After you graduate, but then kind of what their needs are, finding new problems to solve, which is what we're trying to get used to. The breeze and I think this is what you will do in the real world, but in your portfolio when you're taking portfolio around, hopefully you find is that doesn't actually once you graduate, you are in the poor, then DLC or not even reported that she recalled. Hopefully they will see the brief about the pets, because that's what they're working with. All that's one of our clients. I think we can approach it. I think it's that's really good advice, just really. Find some clear, interesting. Also is something we took about. Obviously what it's caring and that's never going to happen that we stop caring about other people saying I think it's like with floored as human beings, but I think it that is so important and we were talking about this more and more that search. But yeah, you're right. With an industry, you have centre people. Saying that being visible, incredible view. And that's not why he people that wanted to make amazing pet blankets will look is it? They will even know you exist. It's such a good point Charlotte really designers looking at other designers work. Review sorry, Sally. I think this doesn't because the industry is doing that too busy looking at other people's work. I'd say be deserted percent. They're wasting their time judging their peers. Use that time that they're doing the time you might have been spending that would prompt clients like. It's really obvious when you say it, but I just don't think that something it's like said often enough is that I think graphic designers particular space that can encourage that competitive. About being back with some jealous sister is like looking at what you're doing. Isn't that is really is good to hear you say that cause I don't think we'd say this. Enough perhaps intending to graduation? Yeah, yeah. Anything that kind of yeah. Beautiful points, anybody got any questions they want to turn offer up? So can you? Say out loud you can sit in there. Grounds. I'm. with a cat baby are very to look for people who are really early stage and I think another thing that's really underrated are going to say this. There was a publication after which I know is really accessible to you. I don't know if you're all in Leeds at the moment or your homes and places, but there's a welcome to Yorkshire and pretty much I'm sure loads of other councils do something similar. Have a booklet which lists all the people working in particular space and it's free to access, and so there's loads of like. Distant all free drink friends. As you know I've got food drink bias so that's why I'm dwelling on those things. But it was actually a goldmine. I mean it was. It was like businesses between 2 and 50 people who are based in the Yorkshire area who have enough budget to be advertising in this particular Bible of. At Browns and and you know in in there because I think it was focused towards buyers at supermarkets. They were listening what their credentials were, what the turnover was setting. So you could have evidence that they actually had money. So I think think outside the box when it comes to where you find people to approach equally, you know events so. I'm not suggesting you attend events and you know particularly, not not now. It's it's difficult, but you know, food and drink matters. Live, for example, is an event I think happens at the NEC each year, but I did not go to the NEC. I scrape all the days right of all the people who are exhibiting. I was approached then that's what I would recommend doing. Also, LinkedIn is such an incredible resource as well. I think it's about thinking creatively about about where you're finding. People are just being honest about the stage apart from what you what you're able to charge, you know what you're able to ask for? Is it icy? Because that is your advantage. So I'll move on to the next one. When you said to be an individual and post fungus supply. If I'm applying for a job and not starting an agency. I don't know, it's a tricky one for me to answer because I've not been in the position where I facilitated the programme that we market to reach graduates who might want to work with us as an agency. But I've not been the person judging those. I find it really hard to. To respond to that. I think what might be interesting is you can normally by doing a Google search on looking at some of the agencies who you respect normally have blog posts about the people who won the graduate competition. Maybe then search those winners and see what their websites that like or see what you around the Internet. So that because you know, I'm assuming and I again, I don't know this. You probably asked me that most people's portfolios are hosted within website format. These days. When I did a portfolio it was on CD. So yeah, so that's that's what I would do. Do you think it's necessary or helpful to have another marketing strategies when applying to run agency? This is something I didn't touch on that I wanted to talk about. I don't think it's important to know that when you start and certainly. Designers are very protected from the overall marketing strategy and lots of elements of the client brief when they start working on something within bigger agencies. You know it's it tends to be quite a sheltered environment and you get the. The digested version of the brief that allows you to be as open creative as possible, whereas the client brief will kind of shutdown your creativity. That's the thought within most executive directors minds, so I don't think that's important, but I do think it's really important. If you have an ambition to go solo at some point too. Ingratiate yourself to people within the agency who look after the profile of the agency. So when I was in agency, there was this. I think it was kind of driven by the senior creative director, but the House jobs were secondary by house drops. I mean jobs for the agency itself, which drove new business. And I thought it was really damaging because I think it's really important. Everybody within a business to understand what the commercial. The commercial needs of that business are. And say what I do to set yourself apart? If it is an ambition to do things different, you know to to work on your own in the future is to try and get some of those house jobs. Yeah, they're not going to be sexiest things, but it's going to help you to understand what's important and what factors are important when appealing to new clients. And honestly, it's. It's invaluable to get that experience. Is somebody else this time rather than do it on your own? Is square space with using? Well, did you know what I've used square space? Decade and have recently switched to another platform which would be suitable for what you do. It's more suited to my business, which is consulting and coaching. I find skyspace really easy to use. However, designer friends are all now saying to me that Wicks has a lot more flex. And these are people who've been like 15 years in the industry and are now moving freelance or running their agencies and setting things up for the people and trying to make real profit on that. Wicks for informational websites and Shopify for transactional websites. Is what I hear currently. Any advice to see into graduates who are looking for internships seeking employment? Well, I don't know if you've looked around to see what graduate. programmes around the bigger agencies mean 

some experiences that an I'd say is don't be disheartened. It's been a weird weird yeah. Need to go into that again, but you know, especially within brand and packaging agencies to fix enough mcg really bloody good today because food and drink a supermarket brands have done incredibly well. And it's been a case of. The client

Have had the money rolling in, but they have the time to be able to spend it on an initiative. So I think actually the industry is going to blossom in the next year. So if you are interested in food, if you're interested in Brandon Packaging design specifically around food and drink and FMCG brands is a good time to be applying. Lots of people are expanding. Obviously people who work with restaurants doing less well or in the entertainment industry. So I'd say maybe use the winners of the last year as part of your strategy of companies to apply to. And you know, don't be afraid to look to the smaller agencies as well. Who often depends on paid internships and always recommend. I don't. I think it's probably illegal now, but I had an unpaid internship on my placement year on the surgery. My degree very fortunate to be able to subsidise my living costs in the know that's out of reach to a lot of people. But create all the agencies I know they're all paid and I think that actually make the legal minimum. But you know, even agencies that are two people in the books, do you know, depends on paid internships to support them, so I'd say you know, again, think 10 is a really good way of narrowing down what agencies are out there. And you know, maybe you look for a smaller size range. You have got to turn employees. For example, you're gonna get a much more hands on experience than working in a much bigger agency where you know Coggin the machine. So just think about what's important to you. Anne. Would it be worth looking for internship or okay? Contacting smaller agencies is remove so kind of covered the off. What I do know is that smaller agencies more likely to give you full time employment if they secure a really good fair, but I think as well an I don't want you to be demoralised when you go out into industry, but it can take the time to adapt from. Academia and the kind of briefs that you're working with now to commercial reality of what comes into the studio. And I see a lot of kind of new graduates feel a bit disillusioned by that welding lens word app to it. And sometimes it's easier to do that within a bigger environment. And in a smaller environment, here is moving at a faster pace generally. Or you know getting exposure to more kind of clients and projects. So just bear that in mind and don't be deterred, it just takes a little bit of time to adjust. Would you say it's more common for independent design agencies to start charging clients by our daily? On project base rate. Never ever charge for your time, otherwise you'll never be able to scale. I think that super duper important things to get past it again lets another huge. In fact, this is just all like things I should be writing down to record podcasts. That is just yeah, it's just a massive failing, so there's an. I'm reading a book at the moment which puts it really neatly and I'm not going to be able to say it as neatly as they put it. But basically you should be charging for the value you bringing to the client that you're working with rather than time spent on it. If you are exchanging your time for money, you're never going to be able to grow what you're doing. You're never going to be able to move past a certain level, and it I know you're going to be putting your process at every year, but the reality is, if you're working with your clients and your reading. Acute amount value. I mean classic cases. If you want some stimulation behind this, look at how much. Right now or whatever the guy behind night paid the designer he came up with the Switch logo. I think it was like 50 bucks. Look at the size of that. I think you know. Obviously it's situation when you don't know where a company is gonna end up. You've got to think about what value is it bringing them if you're doing. I add updated Cutter Guide for food and drink brand who just need to send something to their Princes really quickly and obviously it's going to be less. Aspirational, then working on it, you know, a new identity for a pet care brand or something, but always be thinking about the value right into the business and and also never be afraid to ask them what their budget is. And never be afraid to say it's all policy not to take on projects lower than X. If they come back with a figure and they start, try to read down your price point. Again, pricing is like one of the biggest things I work on, and trust me when I say. Like, well positioned, bigger agencies are really struggling with this, so it will take some time to get your head round. But always be thinking about project based. Ann places you suggest looking for internship. So I kind of mentioned that already I think. You know, look into those bigger agencies for the ones who have established important programmes, design competitions for graduates. I probably controversial because you're. Now I don't know what's going on with graduate shows this year, but. I, I think applying to people directly as well, not just depending too heavily on people seeing you at a graduate show, is important to making people aware of who you are. Unparticular if you say you want if you take some time to get to know them, don't just BCC everybody into the same email. Handful of agencies here and you're like. A tear, he relived workwear than, you know, give some evidence of why you'd like to work with him. It doesn't have to be a really long message, but also make sure you're reaching the right person. That might be different from agency to agency, so that might be a charge that might be creative director, so it might be design director who is responsible for the actual execution of the work and. There there struggling with the size of the team they've gotten might be an end coz they might suggest it doesn't buddy higher up loads of different ways. Look into it. And would you say it's more common for independent design agencies to start charging? Oh sorry, I did that one. Ohh, and you under you president. Yeah, I'm gonna say it's like a broken record and get just get your eye rolls ready everybody. But I think look at I know he won't say this morning and I if I got 50 Pence every single person who clicked on SMS Andrew from season so much time gathering exactly what Charles talking about in terms of people that being in touch. Agencies have got kind of events and cause please do user as a resource I know. That you want, but it's it's. It's such an opportunity to live there and one space in lot places. A lot of messages off written they think as well that. If one list is the same as I suppose when people are asking about where you look to find studios, if we gave you a list or you'll have the same message to contact them and it would just feel the same email. So I think it's really important. Everything isn't everything it's Charlotte said about you. Know why you that's that kind of focus of where you want to work on that particular agency, or geographically is all the different, and I think. This is why I might not feel like you're being supported or as much as you would be, but I think if we just gave you lessons in contact with those agencies and we've done this in the past, everybody would, and you'd probably instantly discounted because they would get 30 emails from graphic design students at least list. So I think it's really important you. Find these is tough. Love isn't finalised yourself. These people obviously that again we put you in touch with Chris Porter is there, but it's you're going to in nine weeks time. This is going to be you having to find ways of different finding places and agencies and being proactive. I think it's. Really important that you practise that students. I'm I'm I'm speaking a lot about Brandon Jing. Design within FMCG but you know huge resource within the industry as the dieline which you probably familiar with already missing package. Underline will probably best wooden round. I'd say it looks room find examples of peoples work that you really associate with as Welland then contact them. And I don't. I think one of the huge benefits that this year as well as people. A lot of the agencies that never thought would move to remote. First or just remotely happy kind of set up because this industry is predominately CMYK and which means you have to be presented in person rather than on screen and that means it's always been this. Hold back from working from home just within the culture and they've had to really shift that this year and I'm seeing people hiring much. Longer distances away from where they might ordinarily, so don't feel like you just have to apply to London agencies or even UK agencies. You know it's a much broader spectrum, so look further afield. I know I think as well. I really, really focused on. Some kinds of the most obvious kind of move for a graphic designer going into industry, but it might be. You don't want to work in this area at all, and I would strongly encourage you to look into. Tech because they're always looking for great designers at some of the most incredible fast scaling technology companies, and by nature they are remote first. So if this is something you enjoying and I look more into that and there's loads of resources online about remote first tech jobs, working with some incredible kind of companies from. The Spotify Transferwise, like loads of other kind of places where you're going to get huge exposure and and plus they have cash, which is, you know, huge advantage so. Yeah. brilliant thank you so much really 

sorry i'm eating myself cause i was talking i was just saying i saw it and i'm actually looking for a resource that will answer the question so if you want to do use Mom. So there's a recruitment agency. That's another thing. Recruiters there were some very specific design recruiters twist or stick is one major players Gabriele Skelton, which I think is just called Gabrielle. Now these are all designed specific recruitment agencies an if you Google around you can find some others. In contact, let them do the work for you as well. But the major players that big marketing push each year is this thing. They call the salary survey. I can only find the 2019 word now, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't more recently so have a Google around and try and framework. Today I just put that table for speed. That's the closest you're going to get to a good resource, and I think in there they normally include freelance salary ranges as well, but they cover up all the jobs, not just you know, junior designer. I think it's important to think about where you want to get to, and that might be financially, or it might be as in a role you might want to move into strategy, for example, and I don't know but. Take a look at that and figure out what right 50 you and then and work things back. Thank you. call mike guys i have to jump off because it was brilliant 

 I love her, she seems honest and real and the tips on finding a job is more helpful than anything else we have really gotten.